gaspode | View from the bar ...

Current Mood: thoughtful
Current Music: Dark Side of the Moon

View from the bar ...

I have found myself musing the nature of the relationship between media and Lit fandom over the last few days spent at eastercon.

It was an enjoyable weekend - but I felt it had to work hard to be one. There’s no Bid for 2007 yet - Some people are saying it’s the end of Eastercon.

On reflection I don’t agree - I think that between now and Glasgow next year (if not sooner) someone will step up. I am almost tempted myself as some of you know, but I have several reservations, although the feelings I have expressed to you still stand - but I don’t think now is the time. EC needs to evolve but I think it needs to work out which way for itself, I have some fairly drastic ideas, but I'm not convinced EC is ready for them (In fact I know its not). Who am I to judge? No one special but I am regular attendee (not every year - but certainly most since Confabulation in the docklands in 95 (or 94 - I can’t remember) and 4 or 5 before that over the previous 10 years.

The problem is always going to be how to change for the better without losing your core attendees - and that’s something that is going to be very hard for EC. But if it doesn't it is going to continue to shrink - it may take a few years or it could be as soon as 2007. EC doesn’t market itself - it takes the 'If we run it they will come' attitude. It needs new blood (like so many other conventions - it is by no means the only con guilty of this - certain established Media Cons take the same stance and have the same problem). New Blood - New Attendees - found from new sources. EC can be difficult for an 'Outsider' to crack. It has all the right ingredients - a good selection of relevant guests, several streams and lots of panels and the games and 'fun items'. But it can be difficult to get accepted into the established 'cliques' - This con has been running a long time after all and many of the attendee’s have been coming for 30 years plus. While most are not rude (though some are) many are very disinterested in embracing new people – or even engaging in conversation with them.

The main thing that needs to be addressed I think is the negativity some have towards the inclusion of a media strand (something that is still minimal). Should EC become a media con? Certainly not. That said having a panel called 'Have Media fans fecked Fandom' may not be the way to go (incidentally the conclusion was 'No'). The inclusion of more media related panels - (but still small scale ones) can help bring more fans in to the true SF fold - god only knows nowadays people need to be encouraged to read - Have items that will help bring these people in and make the con more accessible to newbie’s - more smaller interactive items - two of the most enjoyable panels for me over the weekend were the ;Have I got books for you' and 'SF Charades panels' - oddly enough an awful lot of redemption faces were at these panels. Also the Galactica and HHTGH panels were literally overflowing from their room – the interest is there - so give the media strand more depth.

Sorry – Its probably not my place to go on like this but I class myself as a Sci-Fi/fantasy fan. I don’t make a distinction between Lit and Media and why should I ?

No, EC shouldn’t become a media con – We have Redemption which does that well (and embraces the lit side too). But it needs to realise it needs to sell it’s self and make people outside the established con circuit aware of its existence. Bring people in and give them a good time they will come back – and bring their friends. The Exec of Eastercon always do a sterling job - and I take my hat off to anyone who takes a con on and succeeds (i'm wayyy too lazy). As i said this is just my opinion and I have no answers.

....

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I've always remebered the Friday Buffet in 01 ....

Just meat meat and more meat ....

Now as a carnivore I wasnt worried - but most of the group I was with was :)

I think it was in 01 I was given the title 'The Anti Veggie'

In fact I think that was when the till was on the serving thing too.

It's easier for the WorldCons, because they have WSFS behind them...

I don't know if you meant to do this, but to me this implies that there is some formally incorporated body ("WSFS Inc.") who manages the Worldcon and sanctions the individual committees, the way the International Olympic Committee licenses the Olympics to individual host committees.

There is no WSFS Inc. There is no "headquarters" or "home office," and WSFS isn't an incorporated organization. There is no central organization that goes out and promotes Worldcons, or "stands behind" Worldcon committees in any meaningful legal way. Its only definition (an unincorporated literary society) is the WSFS Constitution, and the membership of WSFS is everyone who is a member of the current Worldcon. (It's not possibly to join WSFS any other way.) The "government" of WSFS consists of an annual business meeting, open to every member. (Of course, in practice only about 100 of the thousands of eligible members actually participate, but all of them are eligible to attend, make proposals, debate, and vote if they want to do so.)

The only way in which WSFS is just slightly more centralized than Eastercon is that there is a WSFS Mark Protection Committee whose members are elected at the Business Meeting (Worldcon committees also appoint members), and whose job it is to look after the service marks on "Worldcon," "Hugo Award," etc. (As each Worldcon is a standalone entity, no one committee could actually own the service marks.) The MPC has no independent funding. Individual Worldcon committees donate money to pay for the ongoing cost of registration (Interaction recently paid the cost of renewing one of the WSFS marks in the UK, for instance).

At the couple of Eastercons I've attended, discussions about the future of Eastercon seem to assume a heck of a lot more coherence and permanent structure to WSFS than actually exists. As Chairman of the Mark Protection Committee, I suppose I ought to be flattered, but the real situation for Worldcons isn't a whole lot more different than Eastercon's.

I suppose that you're right in saying that we assume WSFS is more than it is really -- you'd know.

Certainly the perception is that it's far more organised and... well, organised than anything in UK fandom.

But it *is* a permanent, ongoing organisation, which is far more than there is for Eastercons.

I'm going to stop, now. I have no intention of trying to argue any WSFS points with Mark, as I know that he knows infinately more about it than I do!

Sadly moving Redemption to Easter would mean we couldn't go, as

sweetheartwhale works in retail and isn't allowed to take that weekend off. (well, technically she is, but it's more money then!)

I know - that's been the argument against for years; that and the fact that the London hotels don't need our business, so we can't bargain them down and when we have gone, the service has been awful (although I don't remember it being that bad in Docklands in '95).

However, I'm starting to think that the cost is a little bit of a red herring. Media cons charge much more for membership than we do, and the hotel room rates are the biggest expense and for many the cost of transport is almost as large. A few years back, a possible London bid was abandoned in favour of somewhere else (I don't remember where) because that's what the people at the bid session wanted. They had their own short term interests at heart, and I can't blame them.

If we want Eastercons to thrive, we have to bite the bullet and hold a con somewhere near London. It doesn't have to be central London, I'm sure the costs would be prohibitive, but it does need to be somewhere in the South East near London where people can get to on a day's outing. Croydon anyone?

The Eastercon bounce.

I liked the Brittania too - but that was a long time ago and the Docklands have become far more accessable now than back then which will have changed the situation.

It's an interesting issue - is the percentage of people likely to attend that much higher for people that live in london ? I'm not sure it is ... Any thoughts anyone?

But it *is* a permanent, ongoing organisation, which is far more than there is for Eastercons.

Only for lack of desire for any sort of ongoing structure. It would be trivially easy to establish the (extremely minimal) amount of organizational structure of WSFS for an Eastercon, without even recourse to Troublesome Americans like me. There are several rules wonks among the Eastercon regulars who could do it, starting with

timill, who is also Chairman of this year's WSFS Business Meeting. But this has at least two problems:

1. Getting people to agree to it WSFS's structure is not imposed from above; the members voted to establish it and continue to work within the structure. If my own experience of Eastercons (admittedly limited) is indicative, most of the people who care at all about this issue object strongly to anything that smacks of structure of any sort and will shout down any attempts to create it, even the WSFS model where all of the actual authority is vested in the individual conventions and the so-called "central government" is effectively powerless.

2. It wouldn't address the issue at hand. Having permanent structure isn't really what is hurting Eastercon, and establishing a WSFS-type organizational structure won't make things any better. Eastercons, like Worldcons, are dependent upon individuals coming forward and volunteering their time and effort. Without people willing to do the work, the event collapses.

FWIW, the convention most like Eastercon in this regard is IMO Westercon. Westercon nominally has a permanent structure (a WSFS-style set of bylaws) and even has an incorporated body as a backup (LASFS officially owns the service mark but takes little active hand in management of the convention). Westercon rotates around Western North America, but has been growing smaller and smaller in recent years, and many (including me) have started questioning its viability.

Media cons charge much more for membership than we do

Yes, but they're *media cons*... [g]

I did plan to attend the Eastercon Forum session on Monday, but breakfast took precedence. :-/ Could anyone post a summary, somewhere? Possibly over in paragon2.

The "Media Fecked Fandom" session raised a lot of interesting points, though.

- One person had been coming to Eastercons for years before discovering that it's much cheaper if you (a) join early, rather than on the door, and (b) book a hotel room through the con rather than directly. If it takes years to infer this, the information dissemination during that member's first cons can't have been great.

- The name-change doesn't help. Something like Starfury has a clear brand; all the SFX ads look exactly the same. Eastercons are hard to spot.

- The biggest piece of advertising Eastercon gets is Dave Langford's mentions in SFX. Give the man another round of applause.

- Don't claim that media cons are not "sf cons"; the vast majority of media con attendees are sf fans. To claim otherwise is just insulting.

- The important distinction between lit cons and most sf cons is the motivation behind the con organisers: passion vs profit. The profit model drives the pay-for-everything model and encourages the autograph and photo queues. The passion model encourages talking about what you love.

- Eastercon panels have a rep. of being less interactive. For the majority of the session, it's talking heads chatting to each other. Only at the end are questions invited from the audience. The Redemption approach, which tends towards a circle if possible, is more involving, but more difficult to support in the larger rooms with higher attendance. Judith made some good points on how successful moderators can break down the barriers. Alas, good moderating is a rare and difficult skill.

- The green room. It's another boundary between those in the clique (being on a panel) and the ordinary member.

- Eastercon is still clique-ish. Look at the terms: Lally Vision. Beyond Cyberdrome. Groats. Gophers. Filk. It's generally assumed you know what an Eastercon is, and all the information presented is to tell you how this one differs from the last.

- There was no first-timers session at paragon2.

- Eastercon is very interested in nostalgia. A recent eastercon had programme items on great fan wars of the past. There's much discussion about why things aren't the way they used to be. The principle guests are fan-guests. If you're a new fan, or new to eastercons, this is all (a) confusing (b) irrelevant and (c) exclusionary. Everyone else is talking about shared experiences you didn't have. It's like being the only person in the pub who wasn't at school with all the others, and that's *all* anyone's talking about. Example: "5:30pm Life Laundry. Eve Harvey asks the question: 'What do we do with all our old fanzines if Greg Pickersgill changes his mind?' Which assumes you know Greg *and* his current state of mind.

Okay, so some of the points above weren't raised in the panel, but they were prompted by it. I've also been thinking a lot about this over the weekend...

True, but if people (well, media fans anyway) are prepared to pay that, we shouldn't shy away from charging a bit more for memberships if we have to. The more established fans do tend to be better off (unless they have kids or become unemployed).

To get around that, we can always give reduced memberships to students and unemployed (and families?!); as affluent members of society many conrunners forget how poor students and those newly "enmortgaged" can be.

Redemption also allows the refunding of memberships if you can't go, up until a couple of months out. This would be an excellent way of encouraging people to sign up earlier, albeit it makes the budgeting harder.

I don't think its so much that people are prepared to pay - they just have to. The problem with these Actor based cons is the cost of the guests - Some times these guys charge a LOT of money - frightening in some cases just for a short appearance. Fan stream style cons tend to have a lot cheaper guests - plus are not run for profit like SFX and Starfury. Redemption charges a lot less than these - in fact is cheaper (i think - not sure without checking) than EasterCon.

Points I can remember from the Forum (I was just post-breakfast and not entirely with it):

- Lack of student/concessionary rates. Discussion of whether £20 off membership actually makes a difference, with added hotel/transport/food costs. Cheaper membership may entice locals who don't know if they'll enjoy it enough to pay full price. Cons tending to be held in hotels of a higher standard and cost, and harder to stay in youth hostels/university accomodation and feel like part of the con. There are no longer Unicons bringing in student conrunners/attendees.

- Advertising of Eastercons - Paragon2 flyered many local bookshops, model shops, and computer shops. SFX no longer carries con reviews, possible advert in there. Discussion of Eastercon brand a bit.

- Volunteering as a good way to involve younger fans. Comments that younger fans don't seem to be volunteering, Paragon2 was short of gophers.

- Some discussion of European cons, Finncon used as an example of a con which attracts thousands of young people, however it is free.

- Perception of Eastercon. Perceived as clique-ish, little information for prospective members as to what actually happens. Redemption used as an example, has past reports linked off their website. Concussion and Interaction both have LJ communities to allow members to interact and find out about them before they go. Possible perception that Eastercon is exclusively lit and has no media streams.

- Panels early on in the con to welcome new people.

I got to half of the fandom-media-fecking panel, and a lot of similar aspects were brought up at both panels.

bugshaw mentioned on my journal that she was taking notes at the Eastercon Forum, so she might be of more help, and there's some discussion of this on my journal in the Eastercon report comments threads.

Personally, having been to two Eastercons I haven't felt they were particularly clique-ish although some aspects were confusing (I had no idea what Lallyvision was, or gafiating). I went to the panel on great fannish feuds last year, which didn't actually talk about feuds but more the history of fandom, and I found it fascinating to hear about the fannish history. I think I'm in a minority there though.

Does Redemption have the gradually-increasing memberships fees that Eastercons have?

Yep - as a matter of fact it does.

If you want sout east venue, there is always the Radisson at Heathrow that held Eastercon in 1996 (I think) and has had various media cons since. I know that hotel has its problems, but there have been some good conventions there.

That was me - I pimped it there to open up the discussion. It seems to have worked.

From Blindpew

It was mentioned in the Future of Eastercon meeting at Hinckly, that Blackpool had quite a lot of walk ins, if this can happen in Blackpool a Greater London Eastercon I believe will bring in possible new recruits. However we do have the question of cost raising it ugly head as London prices can be very expensive.

I agree on the name confusion and thoughts on the subject should be debated, but Eastercon is an anarchistic grouping with unlike Redemption no centre to it.

Regards

Blindpew and Faldo the Guide dog who is quite happy to be home so he can get some sack time in.

You're quite right about the anarchistic grouping at Eastercon. I've heard it said that Eastercon isn't _a_ convention, but several different conventions all under one banner. The filkers, the academic-lit crowd, the awards, cyberdrome, video stream, costumers, bar-dwellers, dealers-room scourers, etc.

It gets back to the motive, again: passion vs profit.

The common view of media cons is of the for-profit one. Both the organisers and the guests are there to make a buck, so everything is charged for, and everything is geared around ensuring that there's no distraction from queuing up to pay.

The from-passion model's different. The organisers want all members (including themselves) to have fun, and try to arrange that, going for enjoyment rather than profit. It reduces the choice of available guests a lot, but makes those that are available far more valued.

I know there's a "[g]" there, but...

It struck me today that there's a great similarity between fans who say, "It's media, so it's not *real* sf," and critics who say, "It's sci-fi, so it's not a *real* novel."

We're doing something about that.
I've bought all the eastercon domain names (com/org/net/co.uk/org.uk) and in the next couple of weeks I intend to point them all at the web site that

alexmc and others have been putting together.

I've just updated the site at http://www.eastercon.co.uk (which all the others, except www.eastercon.org.uk point to), so it now is up to date with the current situation won eastercons.

Now the convention is over, and once my aunt's funeral is past, I expect I'll be spending more time updating websites (including www.smof.com!)

I fear that, for outsiders, all science fiction cons are tarred with the same brush, and it will not be easy to remove the tarnish. It's the same issue that leads to several notable writers, both within and outside the genre, disdaining the term "science fiction".

When I was first considering bidding for an Eastercon I did a lot of footwork and spent a lot of time on line.

We are an awkward size: if we were below 500 there are a number of city hotels we could use. But we are between 500 and 800 and that, for most cities, means more than one hotel. If you think back to Manchester, people were *very* unhappy. Glagow will (hopefully) work because it is a campus.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Page 2 of 3

View from the bar ...

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

no subject

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

So what happened in the Forum?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: So what happened in the Forum?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

eastercon.org

Re: Eastercon (R)?

Re: Eastercon (R)?