View from the bar ...

[gaspode]

I have found myself musing the nature of the relationship between media and Lit fandom over the last few days spent at eastercon.


It was an enjoyable weekend - but I felt it had to work hard to be one. There’s no Bid for 2007 yet - Some people are saying it’s the end of Eastercon.

On reflection I don’t agree - I think that between now and Glasgow next year (if not sooner) someone will step up. I am almost tempted myself as some of you know, but I have several reservations, although the feelings I have expressed to you still stand - but I don’t think now is the time. EC needs to evolve but I think it needs to work out which way for itself, I have some fairly drastic ideas, but I'm not convinced EC is ready for them (In fact I know its not). Who am I to judge? No one special but I am regular attendee (not every year - but certainly most since Confabulation in the docklands in 95 (or 94 - I can’t remember) and 4 or 5 before that over the previous 10 years.

The problem is always going to be how to change for the better without losing your core attendees - and that’s something that is going to be very hard for EC. But if it doesn't it is going to continue to shrink - it may take a few years or it could be as soon as 2007. EC doesn’t market itself - it takes the 'If we run it they will come' attitude. It needs new blood (like so many other conventions - it is by no means the only con guilty of this - certain established Media Cons take the same stance and have the same problem). New Blood - New Attendees - found from new sources. EC can be difficult for an 'Outsider' to crack. It has all the right ingredients - a good selection of relevant guests, several streams and lots of panels and the games and 'fun items'. But it can be difficult to get accepted into the established 'cliques' - This con has been running a long time after all and many of the attendee’s have been coming for 30 years plus. While most are not rude (though some are) many are very disinterested in embracing new people – or even engaging in conversation with them.

The main thing that needs to be addressed I think is the negativity some have towards the inclusion of a media strand (something that is still minimal). Should EC become a media con? Certainly not. That said having a panel called 'Have Media fans fecked Fandom' may not be the way to go (incidentally the conclusion was 'No'). The inclusion of more media related panels - (but still small scale ones) can help bring more fans in to the true SF fold - god only knows nowadays people need to be encouraged to read - Have items that will help bring these people in and make the con more accessible to newbie’s - more smaller interactive items - two of the most enjoyable panels for me over the weekend were the ;Have I got books for you' and 'SF Charades panels' - oddly enough an awful lot of redemption faces were at these panels. Also the Galactica and HHTGH panels were literally overflowing from their room – the interest is there - so give the media strand more depth.

Sorry – Its probably not my place to go on like this but I class myself as a Sci-Fi/fantasy fan. I don’t make a distinction between Lit and Media and why should I ?

No, EC shouldn’t become a media con – We have Redemption which does that well (and embraces the lit side too). But it needs to realise it needs to sell it’s self and make people outside the established con circuit aware of its existence. Bring people in and give them a good time they will come back – and bring their friends. The Exec of Eastercon always do a sterling job - and I take my hat off to anyone who takes a con on and succeeds (i'm wayyy too lazy). As i said this is just my opinion and I have no answers.



....

Comments

[lonemagpie.livejournal.com]

Hm, maybe we should just stick with Redemptions in odd-numbered years, and Eastercons in even-numbered years?

[luckykaa.livejournal.com]

Naah. We need an intermediate Redemption in even numbered years. The feel is very different at an Eastercon. Nexus would have worked. Maybe they should have tried to ressurect that for 2006 instead of 2005 and used Redemption as the launch board.

[dev-iant.livejournal.com]

I believe that you may be in luck with the alternative to Redemption in even years... let's wait and see!

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

Maybe - But again EC is a traditon that I would like to see continue - and it is nice to have a lit oriented con. And while Redemption is extraordinary in its peer group (and if anyone reading this hasn't been - trust me - it is) with the widest variance in programing it is still a Media Con. But this is the point it embraces the otherside, with its writers workshops and fanzine emphasis as well.

Redemption works as a bi annual because it give the committe time not to kill themsleves putting it togeather (as I'm sure both yourself and your otherhalf will agree), EC gets round this by changing comittees (even though many of the same people are involved in every one) Eastercon is an Umbrella name if you like - while redemption is Redemption. This is a double edged sword of course because obviously some people are better at this than others.

I dont know is my answer - as I have said in my main post. If I had the answer I would post it in the EC LJ and say 'hey - heres what we can do'.

Sunday night I got into one of my more Ranty modes and a couple of people had to put up with me waxing lyrical (and you have witnessed that first hand) - in the cold light of soberness I cant put my finger on what is the answer - just that the question still needs to be raised.

Now is a good time to think about it - The critical mass of media cons has now been reached and has collapsed in on its self. Collectormania and the London Film and Comic (so called)Con fill the strange desires some have to get a celebs name on a piece of paper.

Now is the ideal time to tell people Fandom is not about standing in queues to get some second rate actor to sign a ten pound note. The rise of media popularity IS a good thing - now lets bring some of these peopel in and show them that fandom is fun !!

[lonemagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think Redemption is strictly a media con - it's an interactive con that discusses media and lit. I certainly hate the snobs among lit-fans (though I'm sure there are none here) who lump it in with the merchandise-fests that call themselves "conventions" but are really just actors-autographs-dealers and nothing else.

In fact it goes beyond that in my mind- to me, I think, Redemption is pretty much the definition of a convention. Eastercon usually manages to be one too, as do Armadacon and Gallifrey, so did Nexus and Neutral Zone. There just aren't enough of those still going - practically all that's left these days are the actors-autographs-dealers things, with *maybe* a disco on one night if you're lucky.

To be honest, that's why sweetheartwhale and myself haven't been to many cons in the last couple of years - there just aren't enough around.

[flickgc.livejournal.com]

I can't see that working, for two reasons. The first is that Redemption is seen by SF fandom as a media con. A bloody good media con (I hear, I haven't been), but it's still a media con. The second is that it's run by the same people every year. What happens when they get tired of it and stop?

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

Yes - that was a Joke about moving it. :)

But they would (and do somewhere on this thread) argue that Red isnt a Media Con although it has a strong Media bias it has always had a varied alternative program and this is a key factor in both its success and popularity.

As far as who runs it - I think that can always be a fluid thing - its helped by the fact its bi annual - and i think any member of teh exec would feint at the idea or changing that :)

If I can step on your soap box...

[luckykaa.livejournal.com]

When I was running a sci-fi society, I tried to encourage the members that it was their society hoping they'd give feedback. We're members, and your criticisms are constructive so I figure there's no reason to apologise for going on like that.

Not sure if it should go more media based though. The argument is valid. I do see the danger that lit will get pushed out.

I don't know why we should lump all media together if we're going to split books from Media. Movies are really quite under represented in conventions. Eastercon did touch movies. The horror panel was all about films, Hitchhikers was also about the film and the radio series with only a passing mention of the books. Both panels I enjoyed. I'll probably add more on this in my LJ.

Re: If I can step on your soap box...

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

The separation of Lit and Media is more historical - Yes we can (and many cons do) split the various forms of media - tv, film, radio - even theatrical but Eastercon is and should be a lit biased con - which is why a single media stream is suitable - within this stream as you have seen the various forms then have their own panels.

Interstingly I cant decide in my own mind if comics should be Lit or Media.

Re: If I can step on your soap box...

[lonemagpie.livejournal.com]

Interestingly I cant decide in my own mind if comics should be Lit or Media.

I think the purists would insist that only books and short stories are Lit, and everything else is Media. OTOH, comics are published in magazine format, and that'd be Lit.

To be honest, some people should finally grasp the idea that Lit *is* a *medium* and there's really such thing as Lit vs Media - or at least there shouldn't be.

Eastercon (R)?

[dev-iant.livejournal.com]

I agree with you generally. Many of the same points were made in the future of Eastercon panel at the con.

I wholeheartedly endorse what you say about marketing, but it's not a particularly easy thing to do, nor a particularly cheap thing to do, due to the spread-out nature of the potential fan base.

I've thought a lot about this today and I think that we're not helping ourselves when it comes to "branding". Every Eastercon has 3 names: "Eastercon 200X", "The British National Science Fiction Convention 200X" and whatever the committee decides to call it (e.g. "Paragon 2"). I understand the reason for all three, but it's confusing for outsiders. We need to standardise on one and use that one primarily in all advertising. That one should be "Eastercon 200X". It's short and snappy and it tells you when it is. In short it's a name for the society we live in, like it or not. We do need to use the BNSF Convention in the advertising because it's the USP, but not in the name. Likewise, committees like to use their own name because it feels more like their own con and it helps the cognoscenti to know who's running the con. However, we should not be aiming at the cognoscenti; they'll find out who the committee is soon enough.

Of course, Worldcon will bring in new fans, but I think that the main problem is persuading fans to try Eastercon. Time and cost are two big factors and these aren't helped by hiding away in the Leicestershire countryside, no matter how ideal a hotel it is (and it does have drawbacks - the primary one being the shortage of easily accessible program rooms).

We need to run cons in the cities and we must run a con in the London area if we want to bring in the fans. Fans are more likely to go for a day if it's near by and they're only risking a day. They won't get the full experience (the 'bar' experience!), most likely, but hopefully enough of them will like what they do find.

Apologies for the length of this reply; perhaps I should have posted it on the Eastercon LJ, but I saw the link to yours and in my post-con, post Queen concert haze, thought "What the hell!"

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

Marketing is a term i used after much hesitation - but it is not just traditional forms I mean. Word of mouth is free - its how to generate that that is needed.

Yes - The Branding issue is Key - Eastercon should be EasterCon. If for no other reason it makes it easier to find the web page - If you know theres an Eastercon but this year you didnt know it was paragon 2, finding the web page was not straight forward. Branding is marketing and a cheap form.

I really dont want to complain - I did enjoy myself - but I brought some Eastercon first timers with me and saw somethings I normally wouldnt notice.

There was an undercurrent this year that I haven't put my finger on yet - I think I picked up on it by being with the first timers.

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

I should add these were first time eastercon'ers not first time conventioners by any stretch. I include Reet in that too ...

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[flickgc.livejournal.com]

The branding thing is slightly contentious. There are those who say that it needs to be EasterCon™ Ltd, but the problem that you get with that is determining who owns that. It's easier for the WorldCons, becuase they have WSFS behind them, but getting together the momentum to do that in the UK is difficult.

Then, on the other hand, you have people who would argue strongly that there shouldn't be an Eastercon brand, becuase it implies that the cons are all run by the same people.

Actually, that leads me to another thought that really belongs further up the thread...

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

BTW - where did you see the link to this ?

:)

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[dev-iant.livejournal.com]

The Eastercon bounce.

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[flickgc.livejournal.com]

The trouble with running a con in the London area is the cost: there aren't many hotels in London with the right number of rooms and the right mix of function space to make an Eastercon work, and those that there are are too expensive.

Hence you end up on a motorway junction in the middle of nowhere....

Actually, there is *one* annual SF con in London: Picocon. But it's traditionally got a slightly poor programme and, in recent years, there's been very little movement of people from ICSF to mainstream fandom, something that I regularly nag them about.

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

I agree on the London matter - While in theory a nice central location is good (OK - So London's not central for every one - but it is easy to get to, and to some degree this applies to most big cities anyway) space and expence are the problems - Its even hard to find a room to use in a pub in London on a regular basis as 'Ton regulars will attest.

Even the modest media sf pub meet I help host has space issues and we seldom go over 20 people.

I don't think a move to a london venue is the answer - In fact I'm a big fan of Hinckley - while there are complaints about the food (although the quality does vary - same menu 'ish at Red but generally the food was better prepared) i've had a lot worse at other hotels for a lot more money.I like the venue generally - what with 3 eastercons, 2 diskworlds and 1 redemption (and I think a few others) its becoming something of a regular venue.

Oh and welcome to my LJ, Pleased to meet you.
Run for your life

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[dev-iant.livejournal.com]

I know - that's been the argument against for years; that and the fact that the London hotels don't need our business, so we can't bargain them down and when we have gone, the service has been awful (although I don't remember it being that bad in Docklands in '95).

However, I'm starting to think that the cost is a little bit of a red herring. Media cons charge much more for membership than we do, and the hotel room rates are the biggest expense and for many the cost of transport is almost as large. A few years back, a possible London bid was abandoned in favour of somewhere else (I don't remember where) because that's what the people at the bid session wanted. They had their own short term interests at heart, and I can't blame them.

If we want Eastercons to thrive, we have to bite the bullet and hold a con somewhere near London. It doesn't have to be central London, I'm sure the costs would be prohibitive, but it does need to be somewhere in the South East near London where people can get to on a day's outing. Croydon anyone?

Re: Eastercon (R)?

[(Anonymous)]

From Blindpew

It was mentioned in the Future of Eastercon meeting at Hinckly, that Blackpool had quite a lot of walk ins, if this can happen in Blackpool a Greater London Eastercon I believe will bring in possible new recruits. However we do have the question of cost raising it ugly head as London prices can be very expensive.

I agree on the name confusion and thoughts on the subject should be debated, but Eastercon is an anarchistic grouping with unlike Redemption no centre to it.

Regards

Blindpew and Faldo the Guide dog who is quite happy to be home so he can get some sack time in.

[cherylmorgan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all the input folks. Concussion is following the discussions with interest. I'm going to post a link to this on concussion_chat and then open up a thread there where hopefully more Eastercon regulars will see it. Some official response will follow when we have had a chance to discuss some of the issues amongst the committee. For now I think it is safe to say that we intend to make Concussion a highly successful convention, drawing many different strands of fandom, and take advantage of whatever "Worldcon bounce" effect we might get, to help revive Eastercons in general.

One small point on branding: there is an eastercon.org web site, which should be the focus of marketing the way that worldcon.org is for Worldcons, but there are some issues with the ownership of the site. See Alex McLintock's gopherit journal for details.

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

Hi Cheryl

Yes please do ... I think I've tried to be fair - and I want to hear other views (most unusual for me :) )

re the URL - ahh yes the fun and games of getting the web address you want ...

So what happened in the Forum?

[kilbswhitecrow.livejournal.com]

I did plan to attend the Eastercon Forum session on Monday, but breakfast took precedence. :-/ Could anyone post a summary, somewhere? Possibly over in paragon2.

The "Media Fecked Fandom" session raised a lot of interesting points, though.

- One person had been coming to Eastercons for years before discovering that it's much cheaper if you (a) join early, rather than on the door, and (b) book a hotel room through the con rather than directly. If it takes years to infer this, the information dissemination during that member's first cons can't have been great.

- The name-change doesn't help. Something like Starfury has a clear brand; all the SFX ads look exactly the same. Eastercons are hard to spot.

- The biggest piece of advertising Eastercon gets is Dave Langford's mentions in SFX. Give the man another round of applause.

- Don't claim that media cons are not "sf cons"; the vast majority of media con attendees are sf fans. To claim otherwise is just insulting.

- The important distinction between lit cons and most sf cons is the motivation behind the con organisers: passion vs profit. The profit model drives the pay-for-everything model and encourages the autograph and photo queues. The passion model encourages talking about what you love.

- Eastercon panels have a rep. of being less interactive. For the majority of the session, it's talking heads chatting to each other. Only at the end are questions invited from the audience. The Redemption approach, which tends towards a circle if possible, is more involving, but more difficult to support in the larger rooms with higher attendance. Judith made some good points on how successful moderators can break down the barriers. Alas, good moderating is a rare and difficult skill.

- The green room. It's another boundary between those in the clique (being on a panel) and the ordinary member.

- Eastercon is still clique-ish. Look at the terms: Lally Vision. Beyond Cyberdrome. Groats. Gophers. Filk. It's generally assumed you know what an Eastercon is, and all the information presented is to tell you how this one differs from the last.

- There was no first-timers session at paragon2.

- Eastercon is very interested in nostalgia. A recent eastercon had programme items on great fan wars of the past. There's much discussion about why things aren't the way they used to be. The principle guests are fan-guests. If you're a new fan, or new to eastercons, this is all (a) confusing (b) irrelevant and (c) exclusionary. Everyone else is talking about shared experiences you didn't have. It's like being the only person in the pub who wasn't at school with all the others, and that's *all* anyone's talking about. Example: "5:30pm Life Laundry. Eve Harvey asks the question: 'What do we do with all our old fanzines if Greg Pickersgill changes his mind?' Which assumes you know Greg *and* his current state of mind.

Okay, so some of the points above weren't raised in the panel, but they were prompted by it. I've also been thinking a lot about this over the weekend...

Re: So what happened in the Forum?

[despotliz.livejournal.com]

Points I can remember from the Forum (I was just post-breakfast and not entirely with it):

- Lack of student/concessionary rates. Discussion of whether £20 off membership actually makes a difference, with added hotel/transport/food costs. Cheaper membership may entice locals who don't know if they'll enjoy it enough to pay full price. Cons tending to be held in hotels of a higher standard and cost, and harder to stay in youth hostels/university accomodation and feel like part of the con. There are no longer Unicons bringing in student conrunners/attendees.

- Advertising of Eastercons - Paragon2 flyered many local bookshops, model shops, and computer shops. SFX no longer carries con reviews, possible advert in there. Discussion of Eastercon brand a bit.

- Volunteering as a good way to involve younger fans. Comments that younger fans don't seem to be volunteering, Paragon2 was short of gophers.

- Some discussion of European cons, Finncon used as an example of a con which attracts thousands of young people, however it is free.

- Perception of Eastercon. Perceived as clique-ish, little information for prospective members as to what actually happens. Redemption used as an example, has past reports linked off their website. Concussion and Interaction both have LJ communities to allow members to interact and find out about them before they go. Possible perception that Eastercon is exclusively lit and has no media streams.

- Panels early on in the con to welcome new people.

I got to half of the fandom-media-fecking panel, and a lot of similar aspects were brought up at both panels. bugshaw mentioned on my journal that she was taking notes at the Eastercon Forum, so she might be of more help, and there's some discussion of this on my journal in the Eastercon report comments threads.

Personally, having been to two Eastercons I haven't felt they were particularly clique-ish although some aspects were confusing (I had no idea what Lallyvision was, or gafiating). I went to the panel on great fannish feuds last year, which didn't actually talk about feuds but more the history of fandom, and I found it fascinating to hear about the fannish history. I think I'm in a minority there though.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

As no one else has mentioned it, I'll add in here: Concussion has a Media guest. There will be a media track. See: http://www.eastercon2006.org/.